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 Cardassia in the Re-boot Movies/alt timeline
Isadorabelle
 Posted: Jul 1 2015, 11:17 PM
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Legate


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I wasn't sure how else to word that. smile.gif

In this alternate time-line that the new remake movies are taking place in, do you think Cardassia's relationship with the Federation, Klingons, etc. is different? Given that Vulcan is now gone and that was such a significant power in the Federation, how do you think that changed Cardassian politics towards them?

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Amroth Dolak
 Posted: Jul 2 2015, 12:46 AM
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I don't think the general view has changed towards other Empires and its races and that the Cardassians are still xenophobic towards them. But perhaps the Cardassian Empire has had the chance to conquer more territory more easily then in the Gene-Trek now that Vulcan has been destroyed this early in the timeline. Vulcan being the reconsiliating factor in it all.
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Marritza
 Posted: Jul 2 2015, 09:40 AM
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I know Uhura orders a Cardassian Sunrise drink in the first movie. So maybe things are a bit more amicable, to the point where the Federation and Union are not fighting. This could have something to do with hostilities to do with the Romulans and the Klingons? It would be interesting to see if the Cardassians appear in a third Star Trek movie. cool.gif
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Thor Damar
 Posted: Jul 2 2015, 10:51 AM
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^ either that or its a Ferengi Drink marked as a Cardassian one to sell better...

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Nerys Ghemor
 Posted: Jul 2 2015, 12:06 PM
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I actually played with this idea once...based on the impression I got of the Federation at that period in its history, I think the Federation was a second-rate power militarily, more on par with the Union than the Romulans and Klingons. I had the idea of a VERY uneasy alliance of convenience between the Union and Federation, since they have common interests against the Romulans and Klingons, and would be stronger facing the two big empires together as opposed to apart. Rather than what I theorize to be a delay in serious interactions between the two powers in the Prime universe until the turn of he 24th century, meaningful interaction begins 50 years early and somewhat better.

(The story is called "Cardassian Sunrise" for anyone who might be interested.)

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Amroth Dolak
 Posted: Jul 2 2015, 03:06 PM
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Jagul


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I don't think the fact that Uhura is ordering a Cardassian Sunrise means that the Cardassian Empire and the Federation are amicable, whether it's uneasy truce or not. They might as well have had diplomatic contact and got the ingredients for the drink that way.

Considering the xenophobic tendencies of the Cardassians, I don't think the Cardassians will be involved with the Federation apart from diplomatic contacts and the occasional skirmishes. Not even for the sake of getting the Klingons and/or Romulans down.

I believe the distruction of Vulcan in the rebooth gave the Cardassians a better chance to gain more territories more quickly, territories that were annexed by the Federation in the Gene timeline.
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Nerys Ghemor
 Posted: Jul 2 2015, 10:10 PM
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The Cardassians can be pragmatic, however--especially if they may think they have a chance to gain the upper hand in an alliance. That certainly seemed to be the Obsidian Order's thinking in allying with the Tal Shiar to take down the Dominion. And Dukat's thinking, however delusional, in allying with the Dominion. Given that the Feds are more equal in power IMO at that time--and damaged--I could actually see the Cardassians thinking that the alliance could be a path to dominating the Federation eventually. Whether or not that is really realistic, I am not sure in that timeline, but it would not be completely outlandish for them to consider.

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Amroth Dolak
 Posted: Jul 3 2015, 03:12 AM
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Jagul


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Correct, but in case of the Alliance with the Tal Shiar Enabran Tain needed the cloaking technology, which made him contact the Tal Shiar in theirst place. With Commander Solok being a Changeling, he influenced the situation even further as to make the Tal Shiaar agree with this Alliance. That seems hardly a fair and true Alliance because it was inffluenced by the Changelings.

In the case of Dukat making the Alliance with the Dominion, he agreed on making both the Cardassian Empire and the Dominion equal partnners and was able to keep it that way. With Dukat being removed and Damar taking over, the dynamics off that Alliance changed again because the Changelings changed it.

Both cases are from the Gene timeline, while with the rebooth it remains to be seen on how things are approached. How xenophobic will they be? How powerfull will they be? How big will their need for resources be? And how much does the destruction of Vulcan changes the dynamics of tha Alpha Quadrant and it inhabitants? All this matters on how those Cardassians will respond to the circumstances.
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Gul Re'jal
 Posted: Jul 3 2015, 05:12 AM
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QUOTE (Amroth Dolak @ Jul 3 2015, 09:12 AM)

In the case of Dukat making the Alliance with the Dominion, he agreed on making both the Cardassian Empire and the Dominion equal partnners and was able to keep it that way.


I don't think he was. He was well aware that he served the Dominion, and was not a partner. Clearly visible in the scene when they re-take Terok Nor.

QUOTE
DAMAR: Weapons range in one minute.
DUKAT: I've been waiting for this moment for five years.
DAMAR: First, we reclaim Terok Nor, then on to Bajor.
WEYOUN: Let's not get ahead of ourselves, or must I remind you the Dominion just signed a non-aggression pact with Bajor.
DUKAT: The Dominion might've. I never did.
WEYOUN: The Dominion will honour its treaty. And as a member of the Dominion, you will honour it as well.
DUKAT: Where the Dominion leads, I will follow.

WEYOUN: I never doubted it.


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Amroth Dolak
 Posted: Jul 3 2015, 06:19 AM
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Jagul


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Then both Weyoin and Dukat were out to fool each other, because I don't think either were planning on keeping that Alliance.

Dukat was much to set on retaking Bajor and Weyoun for the Dominion was trying to rule the Cardassian Empire, Dukat being a mere puppet for the Dominion. Or any of his succesors.
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Nerys Ghemor
 Posted: Jul 3 2015, 09:50 AM
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The technology does raise an interesting point though: the Cardassian Union could see itself as standing to gain transwarp beaming and access to the tech that built the Vengeance. It would not surprise me to see them ally on the surface but send spies covertly to try to get access to those technological breakthroughs...not to mention red matter, which I could see the Federation refusing to pursue even though it would be utterly deadly in combination with transwarp beaming (think interstellar ICBM). In contrast, the Cardassians would at least see the need to ensure Mutually Assured Destruction should other powers like the Klingons and 23rd century Romulans pursue the tech.

But anyway, technological digression aside, I don't find it hard to see the Cardassians attempting to ally to their advantage and having a more realistic chance to *gain* that advantage than they ever did against the Federation, where Dukat was just deluding himself as to who was really boss. In contrast, the combined losses of Vulcan, the ships that went there aside from the Enterprise, and the fleet in the Laurentian System make the Federation vulnerable. And on top of that, while some still resist it, their mindset is becoming more militaristic and closer to the Dominion War mindset at an earlier point in the timeline, making the Feds IMO more willing to compromise their principles to work with more "unsavory" allies against the two great Empires. That, IMO, is why there is an opening/vulnerability on the Fed side.

This post has been edited by Nerys Ghemor: Jul 3 2015, 09:54 AM

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Amroth Dolak
 Posted: Jul 3 2015, 01:00 PM
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Jagul


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Yes, the technology of transwarp beaming and the red matter would be very valuable indeed, but I think the Cardassians would have spies within the Federation either way. So this transwarp beaming and the red matter could serve them in their quest to gain territories no matter what. When they would be allies, they can use it as an alternate plan, and when they are not allies, they can use it anyway they want to towards other races and Empires.

Alliances do indeed have their advantages, but I would advice against any alliance for the sake of having an alliance. When the Cardassians would be strong enough to hold their own, I would personally advice against an alliance, of any sort. When they are status quo, I would advice caution to the one they are allying themselves with. When being at a disadvantage, an alliance would be an option, but caution must be first and foremost.

With so many ships being destroyed at Vulcan, and the other paart of the fleet in the Laurentian System, Starfleet and the Federation are indeed momentarily weak, which is why I feel that the Cardassians should take some chances and move in on as many borrder worlds as they can. Possibly even more then just the border worlds, I would even suggest as far as they can get in as short a time possible. It's going to stretch things for a while, but Cardassians are resiliant and they will survive.
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Marritza
 Posted: Jul 4 2015, 12:28 AM
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Jagul


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true! I never actually thought to that dry.gif Sneaky Ferengi

QUOTE (Thor Damar @ Jul 2 2015, 11:51 PM)
^ either that or its a Ferengi Drink marked as a Cardassian one to sell better...

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makor tecam
 Posted: Jul 15 2015, 01:40 PM
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Several scenarios come to mind with all of these terrific thoughts..
1)during the Mirror-verse epis, the Cardassians/Klingons/Bajorans allied themselves against an evil Fed Empire
2)a continuation of a Cardassian/Klingon alliance..mirror-verse or JJ Abrahms timeline could be interesting..one of my story premises..
3)a post-Dominion scenario where an almost devastated Cardassian Union is offered assistance by the Federation and utilizing a newly allied Klingon Empire. the premise is a)Cardassia re-building, short on tech
cool.gif Federation and Klingon tech is given to a newly re-vitalized Cardassian union..thing..drowning or accepting a life-preserver..
c)a restotred Empok Nor, towed to a Cardassian planet..like what happened in DS9
d)Cardassian controlled, w/ Fed & Klingon aid..moth-balled ships for the Cardassians and small advisory teams to assist them in rebuilding..
e)after a period of a few years..Cardassia is re-fitting ships in orbiting Klingon shipyards..designing their own salvaged ships..and have the beginning of a new and stronger alliance while being able to stand on their own..!!
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Nerys Ghemor
 Posted: Jul 17 2015, 12:00 AM
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QUOTE (makor tecam @ Jul 15 2015, 01:40 PM)
Several scenarios come to mind with all of these terrific thoughts..
1)during the Mirror-verse epis, the Cardassians/Klingons/Bajorans allied themselves against an evil Fed Empire

2)a continuation of a Cardassian/Klingon alliance..mirror-verse or JJ Abrahms timeline could be interesting..one of my story premises..


If a Klingon-Cardassian alliance were to be in the cards, besides the Mirror Universe, I personally could see it most easily in the JJverse. I've played with the idea of a Cardassian-Federation alliance before, but I could also see it with the Klingons given that few, possibly none of the bad incidents between the Cardassians and Klingons that we know of would necessarily have to take place in the JJVerse before they turn to each other to seek common allies against the Romulans. (Well, at least, that's my idea of what would motivate the alliance, though there's no telling.)

Scary thought we never saw in the MU episodes that I recall: Cardassians with cloaking devices.

QUOTE
3)a post-Dominion scenario where an almost devastated Cardassian Union is offered assistance by the Federation and utilizing a newly allied Klingon Empire.Ā  the premise is a)Cardassia re-building, short on tech
cool.gif Federation and Klingon tech is given to a newly re-vitalized Cardassian union..thing..drowning or accepting a life-preserver..
c)a restotred Empok Nor, towed to a Cardassian planet..like what happened in DS9
d)Cardassian controlled, w/ Fed & Klingon aid..moth-balled ships for the CardassiansĀ  and small advisory teams to assist them in rebuilding..
e)after a period of a few years..Cardassia is re-fitting ships in orbiting Klingon shipyards..designing their own salvaged ships..and have the beginning of a new and stronger alliance while being able to stand on their own..!!


This is just my personal opinion, but I've always imagined Cardassia would have a very hard time forgiving the Klingon Empire for attacking them in 2372. Those attacks resulted in destabilizing their first non-military government in a long time (one that could have even reformed, in theory), and inciting Dukat to go to the Dominion. That led to Cardassia being conquered and the Dominion getting a beachhead in the Alpha Quadrant--which for me, anyway, might well be an unforgivable offense. And the war against Cardassia was on false evidence fed to them by the Dominion itself. During the war, the Klingons slaughtered the entire Eleventh Order.

How do you think the Cardassians would overcome those particularly fresh scars, when it comes to Klingons? It would be a pretty significant diplomatic challenge to consider. At least for me, overcoming hostilities with the Federation would be easier since I don't see the Federation engage in a great deal of aggression without being provoked to it first--though granted, they do fight hard once their anger is finally awakened and they stop pretending they don't know what violence is. And the Feds do seem to have a record of being sincere with offers of aid.

This post has been edited by Nerys Ghemor: Jul 17 2015, 12:00 AM

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